Art of Manliness - Latest Comments in “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

Bastiaan — Thu, 21 Nov 2013 00:41:35 -0000

@ Curtis

Just stumbled across this post, and I was quite surprised at the message and the tone. I've been reading through a lot of AoM lately and it doesn't seem to fit into the style of the rest of the articles, which are much more balanced in terms of combining contemplation and action. Keeping in mind series such as "Find Your Calling", "Craft the Life You Want" and "Are You a Sheep or Sheepdog", it appears to me that the overall message AoM conveys is that we should use our powers of reflection to develop our self-knowledge and use this insight to guide us from who we are to who we want to become.

It seems ill-advised to me to embark on something as serious as marriage and children without having your internal compass figured out, especially if you're working a job and studying at the same time. Also, seeing as you've gone through the effort of finding out what direction you want to go in as a man, I would stick to that vision since it aligns with your personal priorities and circumstances. Society will gain much more from you working on your passion.

Sure, sitting around playing video games isn't a great way to spend your time, but especially actions 4 and 5 Mr. Ming has suggested above seem radical and misguided at best if undertaken rashly and without due consideration. If you're looking for something more supportive and informative, I suggest picking up "The Defining Decade" by Meg Jay, Brett did a podcast on it not so long ago I think and she did a TED talk as well. The book presents a similar argument to what Mr. Ming may be trying to convey here: your twenties are a time to get out there and do stuff, learn new skills and build up what she calls "identity capital", and not to chill out and wait for something to fall in your lap. From what you say, it looks to me like that's what you're doing: developing work experience, figuring out what works for you, and working towards a goal that you value.

Frankly, I plan on ignoring this post altogether. It lacks the nuance and mature vision of what it means to be a man that I've come to love here at AoM. "If you’re over 22 and daddy is still paying your rent and bills, something is wrong." I turn 23 in two months, and am currently enrolled in a fulltime Master's program and will graduate when I'm 24. I've been studying my heart out since I was 12 and am frankly rather offended by the fact that Mr. Ming seems to be unaware that it's possible to embark on a fulltime tertiary education that's longer than 4 years.

I haven't figured out what kind of man I want to be and what goals I want to work towards (my goal right now is to have a goal, if that makes sense), but having gone through a lot of the posts on this topic it looks to me like you're on the right path.

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

Curtis — Thu, 24 Oct 2013 14:20:32 -0000

I appreciate that I'm really late to this post, but I wonder what the author would make of my predicament.

I'm 23, and thanks to AoM, I have identified the virtues and qualities I need to possess to become the man I want to be. The problem is, because I haven't "lived," as my elders are quick to remind me, I am not yet mature enough to understand what needs to be done to arrive there...

I work full-time in insurance; a job I fell into and am not really content in. I'm attending evening classes for what I really want to do, but again, this is a slow process. Would any sound mind prescribe marriage and kids to someone in my predicament?

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

Jill — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 23:40:07 -0000

>>The key to happiness IS to find yourself, no matter how long it takes

This is crock. If you haven't found yourself ( like wtf does that even mean?) by the age of 25 then you need counseling or you you've so unrooted that you're a nomad. Grow up.

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

mke — Tue, 16 Oct 2012 15:34:59 -0000

the article's saying you have to go through commitment and action to really find yourself , but that sitting at home and think about being a man won't make you a man

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

Nicky Lip — Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:51:24 -0000

So then "getting married" and "having kids" is the only way to happiness, huh? Sounds like you depend pretty strongly on external forces to determine your internal happiness level... what if, and God forbid, but what if a plane crash or something took all of that away from you? Then what are you left with?

The key to happiness IS to find yourself, no matter how long it takes. Deep, honest thinking is the only way. It sounds like you subscribe to whatever kind of thinking society has told you to think up until now... if marriage and family hadn't become a "normal" thing, how would you find yourself? How would you DEFINE yourself?

To be completely frank, it sounds like you are a bit envious of someone in your life who is able to "find himself" and not work or take on responsibility... don't be mad, just find YOURself and you too will be happy.

Peace and love.

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

Jason Sneed — Fri, 13 Aug 2010 17:22:09 -0000

This is a good article about commitment

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

Brett — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:13:13 -0000

@Phillip-

1) I did not write this article. Cameron Ming did.

2) I think you have misread this article and taken a very narrow view of the point of it. But there's nothing that I can say that hasn't already been explained in the above comments, so I'll simply leave it at that.

3) This post is more than a year old, so just as a bit of advice, I wouldn't bother responding to people's comments. It is very unlikely that they're checking in here.

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

Phillip — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:35:29 -0000

Brett,

So joining the peace corps or going to grad school or medical school are "excuses" for not getting married in your early to mid 20's? What if the right girl for you hasn't come along yet, or if she never does? Are men who become priests not manly and self centered becuase they didn't marry and have kids?

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

Phillip — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:28:33 -0000

Jonothan,

What if that "one" girl, who'm you can have that kind of life with never comes a long? Should you wait until she does to have the adventures and experiences that go into being a man wait until or if "she" comes a long. I'm 31 and still waiting for her, but until then I'm living my life.

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

Phillip — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:04:19 -0000

Matt B,

For you marriage and kids are the only way to real growth, not everyone. Every guy who isn't interested in a 9-5 desk job and a wife and 3 kids in the burbs isn't Peter Pan.

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

Phililp — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:01:44 -0000

GBurger,

Actually he literally is saying get married and have kids, to have a fulfilling life and be a real man

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

Phililp — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:57:22 -0000

While I agree that playing Halo all day and hitting the bar every night isn't "finding yourself" , getting a 9-5 job a house un the burbs and wife and 3 kids won't make you find yourself either. It can make you a better man, but it's not a given. I know weak pathetic men who have dead end jobs in a cubicle they hate, and barely know their kids. I know great men who have never had a normal 9-5 job and aren't married, or are and don't have kids. Does the man who travels the world doing aide work or as traveling doctor or nurse not have a claim to being a real man, becuase he opted out for the standard "american dream"? Our society has an odd duality, we admire characters like Indiana Jones, yet we also claim that a life like his, no marriage, no kids, a risky globe trotting job based primarily on treasure seeking, is a "non manly" life. I think being a real Man is about finding your true calling in life, be it in corporate america, the military, or traveling the world

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

Genetic Determinist — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 14:31:45 -0000

Yeah! I (arbitrary personal example) when I was 20 and I (arbitrary outcome completely incapable of being expanded to larger population), therefore (ad hoc conclusion involving personal and idiosyncratic definitions of "man", "self", and "contentment")! Anyone who believes otherwise is (proponent of conformity/a baby/an embodiment of societal forces I dislike).

You do realize that there are no persuasive arguments anywhere in here, right? Article and comments from both sides included. You're placing moralistic concepts on top of what is simply a biological imperative. You have no concept of how your own upbringing and culture have influenced your idea of what a "legitimate" man is or isn't. There is no logic in these grand statements.

You are nothing more than a collection of chemical and, beneath that, atomic processes. You are no different, in the long run, than apes or birds or dogs or rats. Everything you know and love will disintegrate into nothingness and will fade forever from all memory in nothing less than a blink of the universal eye. Your life is meaningless.

That's what you get when you "know thyself," not whether you should get married or not. Just go outside and enjoy the day, already.

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

OLDGUY — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 09:22:43 -0000

I love it! The author has broken the shackles of political correctness prevelant in todays Oprah minded psycobabble driven culture. Lets face it, finding yourself is todays acceptable way of not being willing to attack life head on. Dont confuse this, as some posters seem to be doing, with sowing your wild oats or experiencing life and adventure in a responsible way when young. I believe it is necessary to the developement of a man. In fact I believe it makes a better man to have done these things so as not to think he missed out on something when he gets older. However, way too many people are using the "I'm finding myself" excuse as a scape goat for not wanting to do the hard work associated with commitment, responsibility and honesty. Good article!

I have Spoken!

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

Gburger — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 02:46:30 -0000

Ok i believe this poster is has the right idea. He obviously knows what it is like to be down in the dumps. AND ITS TRUE if you are 22 and still being LAZY and living with your parents then there is something clearly wrong with you. He is clearly just saying that "hey i did these things and look my life turned out to be meaningful." He's not saying go get married and having kids. He means look for a future and make a difference instead of sitting around all day with a part-time job or no job at all. If you think "hey i have enough money having a part-time job is good cause i'm A. already have too much money (which you can't) or B. I'm just too lazy to work full time." He is not forcing you. He is trying to help out his fellow men cause he knows how it feels to be down low. He is merely suggesting the values of life and how you can obtain them. And most of those ideas are good. Hey have a few kids start a family not be lonely. Or get a roommate and a full time paying job. The point is to not be some lazy asshole when clearly others would kill to have your freedoms. You can joke all you want but in the end you didn't make a difference in the world unless you put effort in yourself, your life, others around you, and your community. Small things help and only you can save yourself and others from an embarrassing, hopeless, empty life.

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

Gburger — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 02:45:20 -0000

Ok i believe this poster is has the right idea. He obviously knows what it is like to be down in the dumps. AND ITS TRUE if you are 22 and still being LAZY and living with your parents then there is something clearly wrong with you. He is clearly just saying that "hey i did these things and look my life turned out to be meaningful." He's not saying go get married and having kids. He means look for a future and make a difference instead of sitting around all day with a part-time job or no job at all. If you think "hey i have enough money having a part-time job is good cause i'm A. already have too much money (which you can't) or B. I'm just too lazy to work full time." He is not forcing you. He is trying to help out his fellow men cause he knows how it feels to be down low. He is merely suggesting the values of life and how you can obtain them. And most of those ideas are good. Hey have a few kids start a family not be lonely. Or get a roommate and a full time paying job. The point is to not be some lazy asshole when clearly others would kill to have your freedoms. You can joke all you want but in the end you didn't make a difference in the world unless you put effort yourself, your life, others around you, and your community. Small things help and only you can save yourself and others from an embarrassing, hopeless, empty life.

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

JMorgan — Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:57:32 -0000

The first poster is looking at the issue from the wrong side. I think his views are of the all-too-prevalent persuasion of young people today to believe that life is storybook, that if something dramatic, romantic, or extraordinary doesn't happen in their lives, then they have just settled for less. In my opinion, there's few things more romantic than putting yourself aside to care and provide for a wife, or as extraordinary as birthing and raising a child. Travelling and working on your art doesn't benefit anyone, least of all you.

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

RenegadeJoeCool — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 00:44:21 -0000

you hit the nail on the head...my home, my life, my love...ALL destroyed over the BS that society is calling 'finding oneself'...money exchanging hands for 'the best advice and help' isn't worth the $ spent....it destroys the things that are PRICELESS including and not limited YOURSELF. Great post, hope you bring more to light!!

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

Shan — Fri, 27 Feb 2009 14:05:47 -0000

I TOTALLY agree with your post. After 41 yrs. of marriage, my father-in-law decided that he needed to "find himself" thanks to an over-zealous diagnosis from a shrink. My mother-in-law has been in pieces ever since. Since leaving, my father-in-law has racked up $50K in credit card debt, told my mother-in-law that they need to sell their home in order to "get out of debt", wants a divorce, and promises that he will eventually remarry her. What a crock!

If you need to "find yourself", look in the mirror! Realize that you can't live a successful life by being self-centered. Thinking of others before you make a decision is a step of the process. Otherwise, you will find yourself a very lonely person in the end.

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

Jason — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:26:44 -0000

@Max - I noticed that too... I just found this site yesterday and have read quite a few articles and skimmed through many of the comments. This is the first article where I've noticed so much negative feedback. I think some people take the advice a little too literally. Many religions include some tradition of celibacy, for example, and being Catholic I personally know some manly monks and priests (and a lot who aren't so manly, but I chalk them to the cultural problem that this site is addressing). At any rate, I believe the vast majority of us are made for and called to marriage, so I wouldn't change the advice to suit the few exceptions. This article strikes a bit of a nerve in me, but instead of excusing myself, I'd rather man up and take the advice/warning seriously.

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

Be who you are — Sat, 27 Sep 2008 05:30:35 -0000

Finding yourself is way of saying "develop" we as humans are social animals, we can not develop properly without others around us, problem is when we grow up around those who have stopped developing. It can be very easy to fall in line with the general opinion but it can be dangerous as well. Your always going to come across someone who will tell you how to live, the trick is to seperate the truth from the bunk.
Some people will tell you what makes them happy and how you can find what works for you, without telling you how to live. Others are merely seeking a way to validate their lives, or they could actually believe the words that come out of their mouth. The point is, think very hard about what you want out of life and go for it, and when you get it, achieve something else you always wanted to but for some reason never could (if reasonable) or simply just enjoy life from that point on.
Being productive in a society is always important, how else can we perpetuate the playgrounds of development? Being a man (in response to a trend I see here) is making a choice and sticking to it and not quitting until you have achieved what you set out to do (not to mention having a plan B), its standing your ground even when you face tough choices, its losing and getting back up,its defending yourself and what you believe in, its defending your honor, family, loved ones and sometimes even your enemies, its going all the way knowing your going to lose, its winning and not gloating, its loving your enemy because some part of them is you, its having passion for something..anything,its getting hurt, its getting the shit kicked out of you, its kicking the shit out of others, its regret, its pride (very much so), its sadness, its being alone, its holding back your tears, its letting our inexperienced brothers fall even though we want to help them but helping all the time wont teach but most of all being a man is being able to look in the mirror and saying that you are as good as any man anywhere if not better...

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

erik — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 02:43:09 -0000

wow, there are some insecure guys on here. who are you to tell someone how they should or should not live?

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

Dolarhide — Fri, 22 Aug 2008 16:05:28 -0000

I completely agree!!

To the first poster, and I'm sure to countless others who felt the same way as him, I want to tell you that getting married and starting a family does not necessarily include moving to the burbs or settling for less.

My spouse and I happily live in the city, and have plenty of friends with children who also live in the city and continue to stay involved with city life. We are the new urban families! We are carless by choice, and entirely plugged in to our community. We are intentionally raising our children in the city's diverse environment so that they can be less afraid of the unknown when they are older. We travel, explore, and continue to dream-- the only difference is that we do it TOGETHER, and we have to work out the inevitable differences that arise.

I completely agree that accepting commitment and embracing responsibility is the BEST way to challenge yourself to be a better person, male or female.

:-)

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

Tina — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 20:32:19 -0000

Interesting read and not only applicable to men.... I like the insight and agree with doing good for good's sake and not for the bragging rights.

Re: “Finding Yourself” Is a Crock

Paul — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 00:07:42 -0000

Brett,

Holy crapsticks, your website is generating an incredible amount of traffic and dialogue/controversy! Just goes to show you that men are hungry to figure out what being a man really is!

Keep up the good work, you will be blessed!