Art of Manliness - Latest Comments in The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

Ben There — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 02:15:03 -0000

Yes the sex is much better and more frequent. Sex is, at its core, a mode of communication. And communicating with a partner improves with practice. When you have found the right partner, you never run out of things to say. Marriages don't end when one partner doesn't get their way; marriage ends when someone feels un-listened-to.

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

Harvardian — Sat, 02 Aug 2014 15:05:41 -0000

The case against marriage:

As for sex, women will often use it as a weapon, denying their husbands sex when things don't go their way.

As for living longer, if you're married, you're not going to want to live longer. Most of these is because married men are henpecked not to smoke, drink, or eat grub. I love doing all those things, and no one's going to stop me. I don't smoke or get drunk in public, but if I want to do it in private, that's up to me.

If you really want to be healthy, itr's certainly possible without getting married. Just don't smoke, drink, and exersize. It's not brain surgery.

As for happiness, many single people are under the myth that marrisge is essential to happiness. Most married men are henpecked and anything but happy. Single men can just be themselves.

As for companionships, true friends offer true companionship. Tose who ditch you for a date aren't true friends. Me and my friends are there for each other, and we mean a lot to each other. They are family in every way but blood.

As for the last part, about "Be absolutely sure you pick the right woman to marry, someone who will be just as passionately committed to making the marriage work as you are, and your chances of having a happy marriage are nearly 100%", it's not true. A once read a quote "Men don't think women will change after marriage and they do. Women think men will change and they don't." Even nice women will almost inevitably become hanpecking and nagging after marriage, because they want their husband to change. This is stupid of women; why not just marrya guy who you already like.

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

Brendan — Sun, 09 Mar 2014 22:49:12 -0000

Unless one intends to have a family, marriage is an outdated institution. For men, there are no benefits, save a small break on car insurance and taxes. Once divorced, the system is, in most states, tilted toward benefitting the woman. Alimony, child support, and loss of assets await the man.

IMHO, the best benefit to the man is to stay single. As 50-year old bachelor Johannes Brahms wrote in his Symphony No. 3, F-A-F or Frei Aber Froh (Free but Happy).

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

Ramos — Mon, 10 Feb 2014 21:28:42 -0000

Completely agree with RB from post 102.

Except I am not married, though I was engaged but saw consistent signs I didn't like and got out.

The "divorce is not a disease" is correct, but here is the thing,
No matter how hard YOU work on a marriage, you cannot control the other part. You can be the best husband ever and crawl through shark infested waters filled with liquid magma for her and she can still choose to just leave.

This is exactly why finding the right one, is so freaking hard, or can be. Especially if work doesn't allow you alot of time to assess a woman you've got "on the radar". I wouldn't marry any girl till after at least an aggregate of 30 days together with her(not talking sex here), being around her a full day, during ups and downs and seeing if the chemistry really is there and its not just a sham or a facade.

It can take years to find that girl that fits, especially if one does not move out and seek her up.

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

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Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

Brandon R. — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 19:00:23 -0000

The last thing I wanted to be was married, then I met a woman that I loved as a friend and a companion, and now I am married.

Marriage isn't for everybody, and even if it is for you, there might be only one person in the whole world who would be compatible with you. If you never meet that person, it's okay to be single.

If you are happy right by yourself, then stay single. There's more to life than the frequency and quality of sex. There's no reason why you can't be healthy and wealthy as a single man. I think the difference is that, when you're married, having someone to take care of and being a partner in a joint endeavor makes you aware of your physical health and financial stability.

All in all, there are many great reasons to get married, and therefore one should not completely rule it out. If it's not a priority, by all means--live a fulfilled single life. Many people do. But don't fight it when the right one comes along. Don't run from a relationship just because it's getting too serious.

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

Deziree — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 22:42:51 -0000

I'm a chick, so perhaps I don't get a say. But in my mind... this is a person you like so much that you want to spend the rest of your life with. You have to keep that in mind. If you haven't found someone who makes you feel that way you can't understand the intensity and the discussion on Marriage or No-Marriage is moot. If you have found this person... They love you, even though they are close enough to you to see all the stuff you hate about yourself. -They encourage you, take care of you when you're sick and together, you get more done for your life and personal goals than a single person ever could. -You're a TEAM in every sense. If something happened to you they'd be devastated. Statistics aside, if you had someone who wanted that from you and to give it right back you'd be wealthier, happier and healthier, than you would be fending for yourself.

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

Casey — Tue, 10 Sep 2013 18:32:31 -0000

Unfortunately, no matter how committed you are or how well you think you know someone to be/feel likewise; it's entirely possible that your spouse/S.O. may wake up one day sooner than later and decide to leave....I think realizing this is the way I have learned to protect myself from anything too shocking. Meditate on the possibility, if not the probability of the end, and accept that it is out of your control if the other half of this marriage decides to give up or leave. A relationship must never be about controlling someone else.

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

Josh — Mon, 26 Aug 2013 04:47:39 -0000

To the contrary stats blasters. Statistics are currently the best way to gather large amounts of information about a subject. Unless you can find studies showing that healthy married men are healthy single men then you lack credence behind what essentially becomes a guess, or a desperate dodge from reality.

Another tidbit, if you are into the clubbin' one night stand thing, do you remember those nights where you went home with someone an you both were in sync, the act was so great that you almost thought about staying for breakfast? ;) Marriage is finding something like that, while the first night is a bit dodgy if both are virgins, you simply spend the next decades getting better and better and better. Amazing intercourse becomes the norm rather than the exception.

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

mondieu90 — Mon, 19 Aug 2013 15:01:46 -0000

I'm trying to make the same point as Floyd. The black people comparison might not have been in place. I'm not from US. I was trying to make another comparison, but I forgot the actual plot. It was about comparing the crime rate of certain ethnic groups and drawing conclusion from the overall percentage, but when also taking into account overall poverty rate, all ethnic groups would be equal.
I apologize for not being clear on my first post.

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

mondieu90 — Mon, 19 Aug 2013 14:57:27 -0000

The way people throw out statistics annoy me a bit, I have this itch that I need to scratch. Saying married men are healthier, richer than not married men is like saying 50 years ago that white men are wealthier than black people. By this I mean that most married men would be living a healthy lifestyle even if they weren't married. The chance is that women simply do not prefer marrying to not healthy, wealthy men :p.

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

Floyd — Tue, 30 Jul 2013 16:18:42 -0000

Correlation does not imply causation. It might be the case that wealthier, healthier, happier, more physically active people are more likely to get married, or that there's a third cause influencing both.

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

RB — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 22:47:31 -0000

I can only talk from personal experience, but I have found married life to be quite the opposite to that detailed in the article.

Sex is much rarer now than when we lived separately, I have less money (despite taking home a larger salary) and my health is comparable at best.

I wouldn't trade the life I have with my wife for anything. However, if for any reason I ever find myself single, I'm never even dating - let alone marrying - again.

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

WL — Fri, 19 Jul 2013 15:09:36 -0000

THANK YOU for the last paragraph talking about "divorce is not a disease". I have SO MANY friends who are reluctant to marry because "I am afraid of divorce". Hello, you choose it! It doesn't befall you like a thief in the night. It is a decision you make, not something that "Just happens". I understand that marriage can be difficult/frustrating/hopless-feeling at times. But you can choose to stay together. That is what my husband and I said we would do the day we got married... we made our choice, even though some times can be "dull", it is a great feeling to know that this is it for me! No nail biting, is-he-going-to-leave-me stuff. Marry someone who is committed to not getting divorced, and then work at it. If there is no escape hatch you'll be more willing to put in the effort. Thank you, AOM, for honoring marriage!!!

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

Jan — Mon, 01 Apr 2013 11:28:23 -0000

Great article! It's nice to hear it from the men's side--I'm trying to send the same message from the women's side.

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

Lisa — Tue, 13 Nov 2012 06:25:11 -0000

*sigh* one more comment.

I will agree that any relationship, especially marriage requires commitment and means give and take.

In a successful relationship you should not think of it as being a 50:50 split, a 60:40 or anything else. Are you willing to give 100 or all you can give to keep the relationship going? Until you are willing to say yes, perhaps you should stay single.

This comment is not because I think a marriage should be 100% sacrifice, but more because mine, theirs, or he vs. she is a defeatist way to look at a relationship.

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

Lisa — Tue, 13 Nov 2012 06:19:06 -0000

Some general comments

If your wife nags you, this sounds like an opportunity for both of you to learn more about communication. From personal experience, I didn't like being that nagging woman. Because of my frustration around the whole situation and not knowing how to make things work I've read a number of relationship and communication books to try and help things. According to my current SO I do a decent job.

About the whole men get a bum rap in divorce, maybe. I've certainly heard of men who do not get custody. However, I've also heard about or know men who get 50% custody and if they pay anything it is child support due to differences in income between the partners, not alimony, not child support because you are not around, etc.

About the money part of divorce, I am divorced and I freely admit I made a bad choice. It was a rebound relationship and I stuck with him because he was nice to me, until eventually he wasn't. I won't go into the what happened, but suffice to say I was in the stereotypical male position of being the breadwinner. In the divorce he got half of all of our assets despite not working for 1.5 years of the 4 year marriage, half of my ore-marital Roth 401k, and asked for alimony. The only reason he didn't get alimony is because the marriage was short. The judge applied the rules the same to my case as she would have in reverse.

The reason the divorce rate is so high is because people CAN leave. With feminism, women can get paid a decent wage for their labor and do a wide variety of jobs instead of just be a secretary. This means there are probably less people trapped in marriages they don't want to be in, and those that last are probably happier. On the other side, if you don't want as much divorce stripping one gender of their rights and ability to work is a great way to keep them chained to someone else in a marriage.

Despite this I think marriage is a great thing. If two people love each other they should be able to be together. And I'm sure that there are benefits of marriage instead of just co-habitation. Perhaps if you had a large enough sampling of truly committed individuals who chose not to get married you would see the benefits of marriage go away. However, you have a partner, a friend, and someone to use as support in good times and bad in marriage. If you are just together, the other person can leave.

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

Kate (not McKay) — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:10:08 -0000

I really appreciate this article! I think it was rare that my husband and I were both so excited about the idea of marriage---we're not from Christian or conservative families. A lot of our friends didn't feel they ever wanted to get married, but now (4 years later) they are lamenting that no one in our generation really takes marriage seriously or wants to get married before 35.
However, I love being married! I honestly can't think of anything better than lifelong companionship and true partnership. Being married has made both of us better people, and I love him more every day. :)

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

SIRNUTSO — Thu, 15 Jul 2010 04:13:15 -0000

It took me 5 years of dating her and one year of not having her in my life to realize she was my best friend. We will have our big fat greek wedding next spring. Cheers!

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

Mister-M — Tue, 29 Jun 2010 12:10:25 -0000

When the upside for men in this country ever come close to the downside for men, then come talk to me about what's great about marriage.

The risks of loss for the men, in terms of health, finances, the children, the assets, etc. are FAR greater than the alleged benefits. And given the outrageous divorce rate and the fact that women initiate over 70% of all divorces - the ability for any man to achieve all of that greatness you report over a long period of time (a lifetime) is so infinitesimally small as to have odds worse than being struck by lightning.

While I believe that there are great women out there (because I believe I have finally found one), the sense of entitlement, empowerment, and the ability to pull the plug and TAKE TAKE TAKE TAKE with the force of government aiding and abetting them along the way, you would have to be out of your frigging mind or a huge "risk taking personality" to get married until society and the laws in divorce and family court change significantly.

http://www.thepsychoexwife....

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

Nathan W — Tue, 22 Jun 2010 03:39:48 -0000

Friends don't let friends get married. My main argument against marriage is divorce. How many men must get burned by divorce for us to realize what is going on. Divorce holds no social stigma in American society. Seventy percent of divorces are initiated by women (men and women cheat at the same rate). Good luck getting custody of your son or daughter! Men prepare to pay alimony and child support for these strong independent women. Is it not obvious the courts are against men in America? Legally fathers don't even have a say in whether a child lives or dies through an abortion.

Marriage does not guarantee any of these benefits. However, it does guarantee that if things don't work out, you will foot the bill.

For the minority of people with good marriages, congratulations.

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

Neil — Mon, 07 Jun 2010 06:12:39 -0000

I think many of the comments here point out the danger of simply taking your own experiences and projecting them onto every other person.

I was married at the age of 20 and my wife was 22. Nearly 21 years later we are still together and I would say that marriage has been (and still is) a very good thing for us. We have 3 beautiful children, the eldest being 15 and on the verge of forging her own life. We have provided a consistent environment for our children to grow up in, and I am proud of that. I have a best friend who has stuck with me through the ups and downs of life and knows me better than anyone else.

Two specific points I would like to make in support of marriage:

1. Children: If you can manage it I think there is no better environment to raise a child in than a stable marriage. This could also apply to other relationships, but I believe these are more likely to fail than marriages. People that divorce and think that it will not affect their children are fooling themselves.

2. What is the alternative? People are social, and need relationships at lots of different levels to be healthy and happy. Are we really saying that modern society has made us so selfish that we cannot establish a great relationship with one other person. What hope for society if this is true?

I am not saying that stumbling into any old marriage is a recipe for happiness, but seeking out a successful marriage should be high on any man's list of priorities.

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

John — Tue, 01 Jun 2010 16:06:40 -0000

Wow. I've been a lurker on this site for a few weeks now. I haven't been compelled to write any responses until I read this article.

I'm not bitter. I do believe in marriage. It's better than being lonely and alone. BUT, my own marriage and most of my friends' marriages are NOTHING like what this article describes. More to the point. My marriage, after 20 years, is nothing like it was at the start.

I love my wife. Most of my friends love their wives. But she nags me all the time. My friends often complain about their wives nagging them. I have to admit that marriage means compromise, and that's good, but most of the compromise is from me. I have to watch my back, be careful what I do, what I say, unless I want to be yelled at!

Marriage does definitely mean a loss of freedom and a loss of inspiration. Not at first, but eventually. It just happens. It means nagging, yelling, and questioning my every move. Is this what it means to be a man?

I question your rosy picture of marriage. This is not just me being bitter. I have no doubt that there are thousands of married men who would agree.

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

Joe — Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:11:55 -0000

In theory marriage is a great thing but in reality I am not sure. Two people working as one to make each others life better , wow! But..... Many people tire of everything they do. They want to move all the time, change jobs and have no direction and tire of each other looking for a better more exciting soulmate. On the other side are the couples who need to compete with each other. I think each bring unique skills to the table. I think the most femine woman living with most masculine guy is the coolest thing. I don't see alot of this.

Re: The Case for Marriage | The Art of Manliness

Cody — Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:10:01 -0000

I'm only a young man of 21 still learning to be a man, and I haven't been burned by a bad marriage or anything like that. But I have to say that although I'd like to be married before I'm 25, it's not looking good living in America. The women around me are for all intents and purposes men. It's very disturbing. The girls who are not manly shine out brightly -- most of them are from Eastern Europe and studying at my university or living in Chicago. Much like the death of the American dream and our slow decline off of the peaks of our forbears' wealth, it did not have to be this way.
In Eastern Europe the ladies can vote and are often far more educated than men. But they have far healthier attitudes about men and relationships. Here it seems like a power struggle -- the feminism movement has become a female superiority movement. Feminists seem unable to understand that due to the fact that men and women are different in many fundamental ways, they cannot be equal. This does not imply that one is better than the other. And even more, young Feminists do not even understand what Femininity really is, or the strength which lies therein. Feminine girls are not weak. And the empowered ladies in Russia, for example, are strong women but realize that they NEED a man in their life to feel more complete, to feel like they can be weak sometimes.

Ms Erin, your statement is a great example. You seem like an introspective lady and I of course mean no disrespect, but I refer to "As a feminist I expect that men should not diminish my opportunities to grow in life." I know that you don't mention marriage here, but I think what I say below could just as easily apply to loving long term relationships.
This is a classic example of the modern feminist attitude -- the assumption that everybody can have their cake and eat it too. Dear, marriage IS sacrifice. And marriage should be about growing together. It's about living for the new family. Some opportunities are diminished in exchange for others. It's about merging your hopes and dreams and desires in to one, not living together separately. If you expect not to give anything up then you should never get married. Many women want a career and a family and are unwilling to put their family first because they don't want to be 'relegated to women's work.' That is no attitude to have in a true partnership, where your family and your partner should come before yourself, not after. You know, love and all that.
This is what I mean -- the new generation of feminists just cannot understand because they were not taught how to be women by their mothers, or shown an example of marriage by their parents.