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And the few times we manage to get together? Just like he never left. Homefries and I haven't lived in the same city for almost 4 years now but the bond is still there.
Real women aren't cruel to their friends...I think that most of us outgrow that at about 12 years of age, unless we're incredibly shallow (we also recognize the value of our husband's male friendships). Friendship builds the participants up, or it's not worth anything. Don't be misled by the things that you see in the news about women- most of us are actually fairly decent human beings with a pretty firm grip on reality. And I guess for female friendships, substitute "mothering" for war, and it's the same type of bond.
Jen
http://yinvsyang.com/
@Darren-The Freemasons are awesome. I'd love to be one someday and I think all men should at least look into it to see if it is for them.
Your comment about friends drifting once marriage and especially kids happens is a true and unfortunate part of life. It makes me want to join a fraternity so that there is a designated time for hanging with those guys.
Yeah, I had friend who spent two years in Africa doing missionary work, and the African missionaries with which he was paired would hold his hand wherever they walked. At first my friend was totally uncomfortable with this, but after awhile, he started to dig it and it seemed perfectly normal.
@Writer Dad-Do you still keep in touch with Jimmy?
@Paul Mac-That's a great idea and I will definitely do it. I'm definitely in that exact stage of life that you describe. When you get married and especially if you then move, it's hard to establish new man friends, and you practically forget how to, like you said.
My first visit to this site, and a great article. A couple of years ago I met a guy from Saudi Arabia who told me he wanted to get a puppy, but his friends here told him that men with puppies were gay @_@ I think no matter what a guy does, someone somewhere is going to assume he's gay.
I suddenly have the urge to see "Secondhand Lions" again!
It seems as I get older, it's harder to make friends. Between work, kids, diapers and everything else, there just doesn't seem to be any time to find friends let alone grow and keep friends. They are probably just as busy as you are!
This is a great article because it comes at a time when I'm really trying to make some good friends that I can lean on and who can lean on me...it's certainly not going to be easy, but as a father I think it's very important for my wife and kids as well.
I agree...most portrayals of women being catty and cruel are a result of the entertainment industry or are what we outgrow after highschool. I'm a 25 year old female and I have some of the best friendships a gal could ask for. Do we fight? sure, but I'd like to think that at 25 I'm mature enough to discuss my issues with them rather than lower myself to petty name-calling and back-stabbing. It is true that men rarely resort to such tactics, but in all honestly after I graduated high school I've rarely seen a woman be such a way with her friends. Of course I am talking about real friendships here, not those superficial plastic-based morons you see at night clubs who's definition of "friendship" means some chick that can help her manipulate men and then later discard. I'm speaking from a mature women's standpoint who's friendships carry a little more weight to them.
Most women restort to having a majority of male friends or use the tiring phrase "I have more guy friends because I can't stand girls" because they don't put any effort into finding the right female friends. I mean friendship is exactly like dating, not every person is going to be a perfect match, you have to put some effort into it and frankly I think guys are better at this. They simply think "yeah that guys sucks" and move on where women are more likely to try and change their friends or mold them to be what they need.
Ok I'll stop rambling, but nice article, sometimes I wish women could form the friendships that men do without the emotional craziness, but eh, then who would I have to gossip to men about?
I think every woman has different experiences with female friends. I am a 27 year old female and I have had some wonderful female friends and I have had some crazy cruel female friends. And the latter were post high school experiences, so it is not simply a matter of being an immature high school thing.
I've had best girlfriends and best guy friends, and I have to say I prefer the latter. Not because I did not put enough effort into finding the right female friends, my female friends were great, but simply because even the great ones sometimes were unnecessarily dramatic at times. With guy friends there was a refreshing straightforwardness that mirrored my own instead of the drama/fight/let's talk about our feelings and make-up cycle of female friends. And again not every female friendship of mine has been like this, but enough that I can say men make better friends. Of course the pickle is that once you get married you can't really have guy friends anymore. Which is a bummer.
It's not only Victorian friendships that were discussed in such sentimental terms but also those of the Renaissance. Sir Philip Sydney's sonnet "My true-love hath my heart, and I have his" demonstrates this well.
My true-love hath my heart, and I have his,
By just exchange one for the other given.
I hold his dear, and mine he cannot miss:
There never was a bargain better driven.
His heart in me keeps me and him in one;
My heart in him his thoughts and senses guides:
He loves my heart, for once it was his own;
I cherish his because in me it bides.
His heart his wound received from my sight;
My heart was wounded with his wounded heart;
For as from me on him his hurt did light,
So still, methought, in me his hurt did smart:
Both equal hurt, in this change sought our bliss,
My true love hath my heart and I have his.
When I lived in Asia, one of the things I noticed right away was the number of high school and college guys who'd walk down the street holding hands, or soldiers resting on the sidewalks head-to-head with each one's head on the other's shoulder (hard to describe, I'd never seen it done before). Even taking naps together. And this were just ordinary, everyday things common to friends. I lived in Asia for over 6 years and I did notice that these displays dwindled the more aware the guys became of Anglo-American culture and the, as you say, homophobia the developed post WWII. (For some additional great photos of friends/camaraderie take a look at At Ease: Navy Men of WWII)
There is a lot of speculation about not only the extent of the Achilles/Patroclus relationship but that of Alexander and Hephaestion, Johnathan and David, Lincoln and Steed. But the burden of proof rests on those who would make these relationships out to be homosexual in nature and it simply can't be proven either way.
Being from the USA it sorta surprised me the first time one of my Argentine friends hollered out with joy at seeing that I had returned to Mar Del Plata, and came up to me with a big bear hug and a kiss, his wife was a little more reserved as a kiss on the mouth from her, in front of him, would have been the sincerest insult, but I didn't duck or dodge, just hugged him back and tryed to remember, "When in Rome..." My gal at the time (from Bahia Blanca) later told me she thought that might happen and that she was so proud of me, because she had lived in the USA long enough to know that we from the North are not so expressive...
So, male friendships that you describe are not so uncommon, just not in the USA...
Oh, and sleeping in the same bed... well, back in the 19th century it was completely common for strangers to share a bed in rooming houses or boarding houses... You see, back then a bed was considered to be a piece of furniture for sleeping on, not like today when we also consider it to be a sexual stage.
When I was in the 10th Mountain Division, many times you would cuddle up with your buddy or buddies, not for any other reason that it was cold and you were tired and you wanted to get some sleep without dying of hypothermia... One night on a night attack we were out on a frozen lake, about 15 of us, and we had about two hours before beginning a coordinated attack, So we set out sentries, and the other 8 of us cuddled up in a pile on the ice, got an hour of sleep, then replaced the sentries and they did the same...
No one thought about who was or was not gay, or whether or not some outside observer might think about that, we were just cold, tired and miserable, so you got some sleep if you could.
But how do you do it? It's a bit like love - you can't just go out there and find a best friend. There's so much serendipity involved. So, right now, I'm just doing my best to be the kind of person who is a good friend (looking at stuff like overcoming my shyness with new people, being more open, listening to other people, working out how to find find common interests ) and adding one or two close male friends to the list of stuff I'm asking God for right now. Haha.
But it's encouraging to hear that there are others who feel like they want to find new friends once they're married. I sometimes get the impression I'm too late to the party and everyone's already got their established friendships.
Uncomfortable to read, yet very touching.
Docconicus
Now, as an adult who has moved far away from his hometown, I find that most of my close friends are either gay men or straight women. I feel this need to develop more friendships with straight guys and experience healthy male intimacy that I didn't have growing up, but I wonder how straight guys would feel about having a guy like me as a friend. I do have a sordid past, so an intimate friend would eventually learn about it.
Later on I learned that it was just part of his culture and he was actually showing me his esteem. I feel really bad if I offended him.
I am gay (yet strangely manly!) so much of the hugging stuff doesn't really bother me. What I want to say however, is that I have several straight male friends who also have no problems with hugging me or demonstrating affection in a physical way. I guess this is testament to the fact that they know and trust me, and that they are very secure in their own sexuality. Sure - I wind them up every now and again - after all what are gay friends for - but they take it in good humour and often reciprocate the humour (as do their wives and partners). Mates - gay or straight - maketh the man...
There was an incident years ago involving two Manchester United footballers. During a match, one of the footballers (Paul Ince) was called a 'black c***' by an opposing player, and after the match went out on the town with his team mates. As he and another player (Mark Hughes) were coming out of a nightclub, Hughes put his arm around Ince and jokingly slurred, 'take me home you black c***!'. A black doorman overheard this, took great offence and grabbed Hughes by the throat, and only let go when Ince told him, 'It's ok, he's my mate! He can call me whatever he wants!'
You may find this sort of thing deeply immature and childish, but I think it shows that male friendship can be a strange and beautiful thing.
You know it's funny, I was at a party the other day and I was sitting next to one of my close friends. Just for the shock value to the people around us, I reached out and held his hand in mid-conversation. A couple of people laughed and it did the trick. But after awhile things just continued normally. And only later on, when all the shock value had gone away and one of us had to get up to use the bathroom, did we realize that we'd been holding hands for almost an hour.
I care deeply about the women and men in my life. And ladies, say what you will, but just as there are wonderful aspects that are found exclusively in female friendships, there are also some wonderful bonds that can only be found in male relationships, and there is nothing wrong with celebrating them.
Great article!
I just wish that at the end, you hadn't digressed into comparing man friendships with friendships between women, because in so doing, you oversimplify the latter. Just because YOU'VE never seen a certain dynamic among women doesn't mean it exists. The "men are from mars, women are from venus" attitude is so reductionistic.
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/bos/367672...
It also reminded me of the great fictional friendship between Jack Aubrey and Stephen Maturin (in the Patrick O'Brian series). Often Maturin refers to Jack as "My Dear" in writing and person.
Also, my unit had a number of gays and it was not so much a matter of "Don't Ask - Don't Tell" as it was of Don't Give A Flipin Shit. I clearly remember holding and comforting a gay military comrade whose long-time lover had just died in a freakish accident during a field training exercise. The entire unit, officers and enlisted, deeply mourned the deceased, who had long held the reputation as the finest soldier among us.
Please know that I am also gratified at the civil, genteel and often erudite comments on this blog. It is a quite refreshing change from the boorish juvenility evidenced elsewhere.
"I Love You, Man" makes it cool to tell your friends that you love them, although it is still a weird thing to hear or say. But having two of my oldest friends in town this weekend made the movie so much more than just a comedy.