Art of Manliness - Latest Comments in The Virtuous Life: Chastity

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

Anotherviewpoint — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 18:44:44 -0000

The concept of keeping yourself and being ascetic, although I don't think is the point of the article, is destructive to the potential of the relationship.

I agree that too much sex devalues sex itself, but I also agree with Woody Allen's position. Sex is part of the relationship that should be explored before marriage since it is part of the relationship. The sexual compatibility is discovering how each other's intimate needs connect. A woman with a longing fantasy of being a dominatrix has a great relationship with a guy who is into sensual side of sex might not satisfy each other. Outside of the bedroom, they go together just well, but inside the bedroom there are huge differences. While the woman finds the extremes of bondage and other sexual fantasies of extreme very satisfying, the other might feel that it is very off-putting, and the woman might find sensual sex boring. It can be worked around, yes, but just because incompatibles can be worked around does not mean it should. The incompatibilities should be worked around if the two are committing to each other, but if it becomes more of an inconvenience to try and do so then what benefit will come out of putting strenuous efforts to change each other to make compatibility?

While the author does do a good job elaborating Ben Franklin's virtues, he completely straw manned Woody Allen's perspective. When there are sexual incompatibilities, obviously the man would not throw the woman out on the curve if he is emotionally committed to this woman. But if these sexual inconveniences cause damage to both sides of the relationship since they both feel they are incapable of fulfilling each other's sexual desires, and trying to work out the sexual incompatibility between the two causes further inconvenience, then wouldn't logically follow that the relationship is causing more damage to each of the individuals involved? Yes, sex should be valued and cherished. But by putting to much value on sex also throws the equilibrium of virtues out of whack.

Sex should be explored with your SO before marriage because it is part of the relationship. If incompatibilities arises, then one should try to find middle ground with his/her SO to try to make it work. But if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

A.S.B. — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 14:53:09 -0000

-->I advocate the addition of "chastity" as a virtue, principle, and pillar for all truly manly men to abide by.
-->I also advocate the fact that casual sex is ultimately frivolous.
-->I'd also like to add mention the term "self-control" was mentioned in the comments as something withholding men from being pure and that's primarily because of the terrible approach to dating/courtship/relationships. It's so hard to control one’s impulses at times because men/women let things get too physical in relationships and so the boundary of right and wrong becomes shaded in the heat of the moment. There needs to be a definitive line for physical engagements that define what's right and wrong so self-control can be kept in place and chastity be kept in high regards.
-->I'll even go so far from the cultural norms of depravity to boldly state that sex, at its purest and pinnacle, is at its best and finest in the wonders of marriage.

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

Northeastoutdoorsman — Thu, 14 Nov 2013 02:32:18 -0000

This is an exceptional article especially considering the casualness of sex these days. Being chaste isn't always easy but it's the right thing to do. I've waited 26 years for the right girl and a little more time sure won't kill me.

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

Aidan — Wed, 06 Nov 2013 23:11:45 -0000

I agree with defining chastity as a virtue that every truly manly man must hold as a principle for right living.
I agree that sex should be saved for greater and higher purposes and esteems than just having frivolous and childish fun.
I will even go so far from the norms of this depraved society to state that sex, in it's purest form, should be saved for marriage: man and wife.

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

goca — Mon, 28 Oct 2013 10:21:22 -0000

I agree about cheap sex!

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

hard truth — Thu, 24 Oct 2013 12:58:25 -0000

good post.
Not a popular viewpoint at all, but much needed. In order to abide by these 'virtues', we must understand the reason for the virtue, the value in the virtue, the struggle w/in ourselves against the virtue, and the pressure from w/o against the virtue. An admittedly simplistic, but often valid, test of whether something is "right" or not is: Is it easy or difficult? The right choice is usually the harder. Being chaste is not the natural inclination of men, especially when our society releases us from all accountabilities. It is a struggle against our nature that we must man-up to.

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

Susanna — Wed, 23 Oct 2013 21:47:37 -0000

Hi, woman´s perspective here:
I think this virtue is mainly about asserting your willpower and your rationality over your most basic feelings. It has nothing to do with not having sex before marriage.
It´s easy to give in to anything pleasurable without thinking much of the consequences.
This is important when it comes to sex. Consequences can be everlasting. Be sure they are consequences you want to happen.
I understand this virtue much more in respect of having self-control. A man that always gives in, that lays about with every slut that comes around is weak: has little control over his will and emotions.
Being able to control yourself is empowering. Exert your power by exerting self control. Don´t be a slave to your emotions.
But don´t go crazy denying yourself sex if you find a girl you like and want to share yourself with her.
Ben Franklin also wrote: "Where there is marriage without love, there will be love without marriage."
It´s much more important you make sure you love the person you marry, than to get fixated on the sex issue.

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

Dylan Grant — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 00:05:52 -0000

As a teenage male it is obvious to me how the collapse of a "chastity culture" has caused so much damage to young men. You did not have masturbation addicts when there was a chastity culture. I have seen many of my good friends become sex-addicts, chasing after one woman and another, and they are the unhappiest people I know. "Desire is Suffering" as the Buddha said.

When I became chaste (completely gave up masturbation, pornography, all forms of sexual self-amusement, started waking up early to avoid wet dreams) my overall standard of happiness became so much higher. It is actually ridiculous, now that I think about it. Lust is the greatest enemy of happiness to a man because it exhausts him of energy, skews his life purpose, dulls his mind, and spiritually blinds him.

For more information on this type of stuff, check out: Celibacy.info. I am a regular contributor on that site.

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

Al — Sun, 27 Jan 2013 12:26:05 -0000

My wonderful older brother actor Robert Lansing (still has fan sites on the internet) once told me, "...never let society or culture dictate what sort of romantic relationships you will have...you can marry, or not, be poly, or whatever is right for you...and you can have any relationship(s) in an ethical, thoughtful fashion..." I have to say he was correct. With the huge divorce rate, saying the only "correct" way to have sex, or be "mature" is too have sex in a traditional even marriage relationship. I somehow feel the author might secretly be a divorce attorney. Love and sex can be "important" in many styles and types of relationships. Perhaps in the future the author will learn how to be less judgmental and more practical and not so closed minded.

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

Paul Hakel — Sun, 13 Jan 2013 01:34:21 -0000

Excellently written. Exactly true. I sometimes like to joke that "sexual freedom" is freedom from sex (or at least extramarital sex). The Sexual Revolution caused whole distortions of sexuality in the world. Sex is for marriage alone - any guy who doesn't get this is not yet a man. Self-control and chastity lead to health, wealth, wisdom, and good relationships.

Cheers!

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

Jeremy — Mon, 17 Dec 2012 20:18:48 -0000

I respectfully disagree that you should wait until marriage to have sex, I agree whole heartedly with the sentiment, sex should be special and saved for someone you really care about. in my humble opinion

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

lina — Fri, 09 Jul 2010 13:11:02 -0000

Absolutely fabulous!

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

Surface and Depth — Fri, 28 May 2010 14:51:12 -0000

This is merely a question of MEANING, in my opinion. A question of quality or quantity.

Some assign value to greater quality while others assign value to greater quantity.

The greatest fallacy is to believe that quality and quantity can by synonymous. In any analogy, more quantity, less quality, and vice versa.

What gives a diamond value is its limited quantity, and even more so, its rare quality.

What seems to be missing in the comments about this article and the virtues in general, is that they are of a SPIRITUAL nature. We have art and math, nature and science, ying and yang. Living a virtuous life is about transcending your primitive nature. We stop growing physically early on in the human life. This is when the growth points inwards, aka morals, values, virtues.

The point here is not about details of whether or not you stuck your organic penis in a girl's organic vagina. Yes, your organic physical matter is REAL, but so are your feelings and the meaning that you assign to your experience. They are REAL.

Modern, empirical science has taught us to objectify EVERYTHING, even ourselves. It often tells us that only what can be observed is REAL. It often only sees the SURFACE, because the surface is easily observable, yet fails to acknowledge DEPTH, because depth must be EXPERIENCED.

This article is about respecting and valuing yourself. Living a virtuous life is about doing the challenging things that build your character. The virtues are timeless and they are not religious, although they are often the common denominators of all religions. They are not mandatory. They are optional for you to choose. They are not about gender roles. They are about the masculine and feminine energies that balance one another in the Universe.

This article is about your EXPERIENCE. Be completely honest with yourself and you will lead a virtuous life.

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

Somedude — Sat, 06 Mar 2010 03:56:21 -0000

man thank you for this. lately i've been on a casual sex hunt (aren't we all) that i've taken to a level of slight ridiculosity. so to read this and think about it, the doubt i've felt becomes a little reassured that said hunt is not really the way to go. i am going to call my ex fuck-buddy and apologize for being a dick and a stereotypical man-doucher. keep writing buddy.

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

Chris — Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:51:50 -0000

Excellent post, Brett and Kay, excellent post.

I am single man and still waiting until marriage (yes, still a virgin, scary, I know...) but it can be done and no, I don't regret my choice, and no, nothing has fallen off yet. I am a normal, healthy, social, intelligent, and decent-looking guy, but I haven't met the woman I want to marry yet, and so until I do...

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

Perspective — Sun, 06 Dec 2009 01:53:59 -0000

Pimpster you are a child

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

Adam — Sun, 15 Nov 2009 21:00:12 -0000

Sex is death, chastity is life. Chastity is the natural state of man in the same way that health is the natural state of man. Would you want moderation in health?

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

Will — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 19:43:53 -0000

Well my all time favourite ice cream is chocolate but every once in a while i'd like to taste something different mint choc chip,cookies and cream ....you know what I mean,why limit yourself to one flavour you only live once:)

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

marizel — Sat, 26 Sep 2009 23:44:15 -0000

Great series of articles, but wow, how did all the things that were learned in the articles on Temperance and Moderation go right out the window in this one? Everyone is talking like there's no middle ground between screwing anything that moves and joining a religious order!

So here's my advice: First, go back and read the last few paragraphs of "Moderation", especially the "content with the normal" quotation and the part about Anticipation, and the part of "Temperance" about chefs savoring only the best foods.

I think most people these days will probably have at least a few sexual relationships before marriage, and I agree with dianasquiver that getting married without having had sex with that person first is like buying a car without a test drive. But hold out for the best and take your time.

Save your sexual encounters for people with whom you want to have at least a moderately long-term relationship. Take a while to get to know each other first without your vision being clouded by having had sex. You can't go back to this time afterwards, so don't rush through it or set artificial limits like "3rd date". Start out with the old-fashioned "getting to first-base" idea. Savor holding hands, a kiss goodnight, cuddling on the couch, a little heavy petting. Let the anticipation build, and learn about each other slowly. (If you do the entire Kama Sutra on the first date, what's the point of the second?) When you do have intercourse, make sure to practice safe sex and birth control. If you find that you're just not right for each other, treasure what you have shared and learned from each other, and part as friends.

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

dianasquiver — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:52:17 -0000

I agree with about 90% of this post, especially the parts about how sex should be special, and how mindless, meaningless hookups do not lead to true happiness and health.

I disagree with your last paragraph, however.

I am a woman who saved herself for marriage due to strong religious beliefs at the time. When my parents and teachers and ministers told me that sex should only happen within marriage, I believed them, and I trusted my husband to initiate me into the mysteries of sex.

BAD IDEA. It turned out that we are pretty much completely incompatible sexually. We found this out AFTER we had committed to live our lives together.

And yes, we went to counseling, and we've worked on this for over 12 years, and continue to work on it. I've finally accepted now that it's just never going to be that great between us, because we are speaking different languages in bed. It's like one person speaking in Basque and the other person frantically waving semaphore flags. There is no basis for good sex between us -- our bodies and minds are that different in this area (although perfect for each other in every other way).

I wish my parents and teachers and ministers had told me the truth -- that people need to figure out BEFORE MARRIAGE whether they are sexually compatible. Because some people just aren't compatible, no matter how hard they try to be.

Don't gamble your future happiness trusting that God will make everything work out. Take the responsibility to ensure that you can make each other happy in bed -- from that foundation, the rest can be worked on over time.

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

Finnian — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:54:00 -0000

I find it horrifying that Pierce believes all the "wild, uncontrolled sex" he had was "worth" an abortion.

"A case of the clap? My child sucked out of the womb with a vacuum? Who cares? I banged a hot Asian chick!"

What a loser.

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

Brannon V — Thu, 16 Apr 2009 02:12:41 -0000

Human sexuality is perverted outside the boundries of marriage, the entire purpose of our sexuality is to truly and intimately know a spouse and to physicaly manifest your reverence and love for her by becoming one with her. Im am tired of immature, irresponsible, perverse, selfish and that are not willing to be man enough to challenge themselves to positively direct our sexual desires toward making our women stronger more valued women and better wives. There are countless thirsty hearted women who deeply desire to be found and intimately loved without the weight of being sexualized. The greatest desire of the human heart is to be perfectly known and perfectly loved for who we were all created to be. Chastity promotes clarity of vision and gives a man the opportunity to fully know and commit himself to a women by knowing her entire being however perfect or imperfect. Its is this type of love that heals and that builds up the heart instead of tearing it down because through your actions you make it known that she is absolutely precious by being chaste in a manner which says to her that "I do not even consider myself worthy of the gift of your body until i give my life to stand up for you and to provide for you spiritually, emotionally, and physically". People who practice chastity decrease their likelyhood of getting divorced by SIX TIMES, and are statically more emotionally and even financially more stable.
Men need to start being men and not boys and start focusing on the purpose so that they can lead their families toward divine goals so that their children and grandchildren will have fathers and mothers, grandmothers and grandfathers of character that trained them to be young men and women of integrity and strength in the generations to come. This movement toward purpose all begins with a young man's to be a good steward over his own sexuality by learning how to look within the heart of a women and have the strength of character to commit to a women not to USE her in ANY way but to give your life to her as gift so that through your leadership you can help mold her into a better women. A women who knows herself to be highly prized as a precious gift. Chastity give clarity of vision so that we may understand that love must have a higher purpose and direction in order to be truly fulfilling. Be a man and not a boy! What is your "yes" worth if you cannot say no?

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

Alison_H — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 12:11:39 -0000

Nice to see a thoughtful, rational, well written article on the great sexual sell-out. But you'll never convince some people that "free love", isn't. Anyway, thoroughly enjoyed reading this.

Ali

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

Sat, 31 Jan 2009 16:14:49 -0000

you have no idea how incredibly refreshing it is to hear this from a man. I like you! you have mind blowing sensibility... I was beginning to think my boyfriend and I were the only ones who still believed in this. thank you for proving me wrong

Re: The Virtuous Life: Chastity

NB — Fri, 26 Dec 2008 09:28:07 -0000

There is no greater weakness than being a puppet to one's own desires. While there are many arguments for and against casual sex, I've yet to meet a man that does anything "just because it's fun" who isn't a slave to his passions, which is to say, at his core, no man at all. Agreed on all counts of this post.