Art of Manliness - Latest Comments in What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

young money — Tue, 03 Feb 2009 10:59:20 -0000

the goverment does nothing but cheat us

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

Dick — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 00:28:58 -0000

That was a concise and well written article. Bravo. To all the people criticizing the author, just give it another read. But, keep in mind that he is calling for the same goal as you.

Brett is not agreeing with the war. He is saying we need to feel it so that we will further rethink the consequences of entering into conflict. The only way sure way to cease the fighting is to feel the results of the conflict at home. Wars that are in a foreign land are out of site and for the average American, out of mind.

This board is an area for posting intelligent content. For that intelligent content to be criticized in a way based on faulty interpretations is a waste of space.

To 'you people': Stop whining on an internet board and go better your community. Try to show the world that I'm not part of the entitlement generation.

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

Wylde Brumby — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 22:32:24 -0000

If you bought and read the ebook "Web of Debt", you would realise that a large part of WW2 was really that Germany copied the American concept of creating its own currency, that was in place at the time of President Lincoln. A currency free from the malign influence of the bankers.

This currency is what allowed Germany to regain its strength after being bankrupted by the Treaty of Versailles reparations forced on the losers. The bankers were fearful that they would lose their precious monopoly to control the peoples of the world, and their countries, to be able to steal resources at bargain basement prices.

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

Wylde Brumby — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 22:13:22 -0000

I think that America has great potential but people don't have access to what is really happening - being fed sound bites instead of discussion of the real issues.

I thought Americans were limited by their constitution against having a permanently raised army(defense force). I was under the impression that was the reason for the amendment about the right to bear arms.

When a country has a permanently raised army it encourages the leaders and those who influence them to look for trouble.

After reading the ebook "Web of Debt" it describes the Western world being held in bondage as fiscal slaves - the bankers control your "federal" reserve by a private bankers cartel that stole the American government's ability to " ~ coin and regulate the value of their currency ~ ".

A description of how the "federal " reserve creates debt through loans that appear out of thin air. More money is borrowed when the government goes to war - creating larger profits for the bankers.

BTW the website where you can buy the ebook is [ www.webofdebt.com ] .

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

Mark — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 20:15:41 -0000

Thank God for the soldiers! This war CAN be won, but not by THIS generation of "Americans." They're weak-willed, arrogant, and have no real ability to clearly differentiate right from wrong. They wouldn't even think of joining the service for a cause which was just and right because they wouldn't know what one was! The islamic terrorists have been starting this war with the US for decades, not just on 9/11. But we stood by, time and again, and refused to act with appropriate actions to stave off the cancer, so it grew. Now, we have evil islamic extremists, who are totally dedicated to THEIR cause and religion, versus "Americans" who cry "separation of Church and State" when someone wants to say a silent prayer in school! Please! Who do you really think will win this war of ideology and perserverence?! WE are NOT anything like the Americans who founded this great nation. We aren't even close. "Americans" of today have pushed away the tenets of Judeo-Christian values, which were the very tenents on which this country was based - the very values that gave us our "rights"...and, in doing so, we have created a dangerous vaccuum. I mean, c'mon, do you really think THIS generation could have stopped the Nazi's in the 40's??! No way! If this generation had to sacrifice and fight that war, I would be writing this in German right now! No one wants a war! But, some foes won't settle for anything less. Talk won't work. Sanctions won't work. They must be stopped by force first. We gave peace a chance... It didn't work.

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

Dan Hall — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:38:32 -0000

I agree with you that National sacrifice is necessary during a time of war and hold several points in agreement with you. I'm not going to dissect every point of disagreement with you, only one:

I disagree wholeheartedly with you about any form of a National Homeland Security Force.

First, it runs counter to the Constitution of the United States. We a real military and real militias in the form of National Guards. If someone wants to make a sacrifice - a real sacrifice - let him join the military. By the way, I'm on active duty myself and have 17 years in.

Second, every nation that has started a second form of pseudo-military manned by civilians who wanted sacrifice without real-military service turned either socialist or fascist - remember the brown shirts?

Third, it weakens the pool of potential candidates for the military. The military does its best work when given the opportunity to draw upon the strength of America. When given the chance to possibly go to a mountainous range in Afghanistan or a comfortable "post" in the states, today's XBox generation would prefer the wi-fi connected post.

If there must be a Homeland Security Force, let it be the US Military.

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

Avi — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:46:20 -0000

Someone made the argument that the gov. does not want us to feel the pinch of sacrifice for then it would have to end its policies. I believe that if it is not worth sacrificing for, it's not worth it. When you want something done, you have to feel it. One may not agree with the war on terror, its phrasing, Huntingtons rediculous theories or neoconservative politicing, but the best thing we can do is support the cause for peace here. If the gulf states promoting terrorist activities and preaching anti-American sentiment did not have oil money to bypass its citizen's voices with, the world would be a better place. Yes, taxes are necessary to move to get things done, but instead of cursing the president, curse the unproportional dividend going to the Pentagon. Vote for a leaner, meaner fighting machine with competitive military suppliers rather than favorites. If we sacrifice at home, if we accept drafts, we will fight only when it is necessary and we will do it well.

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

Nofmeister — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:17:33 -0000

Actually I think complacency is what got us here. Back in October 12, 2000, when the USS Cole was attacked by terrorists, 17 sailors were killed. There was literally NOTHING done about it in regards to retaliation or any military action. It is probably the motivator for terrorists to carry out the September 11 attacks on the US.

Why didn't the American public get more rattled about the attack that killed 17 sailors? I'd have to say it wasn't sacrifice at that time, but a severe lack of focus on what is important.

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

Doogie — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 05:47:36 -0000

Thank you for this post - An American Sailor in Afghanistan

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

mr. dont know — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:15:51 -0000

would like to find the civilian gentleman who purchased a watch for me.if you would just write to my e-mail and tell me where you were stationed and when,I would like to make things right

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

Lazarus de Sade — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 22:39:16 -0000

I am young, barely an adult, so I will readily admit that I don't know jack when it comes to true war effort, or even to the true meaning of a country at war. Here in Australia there have been assorted types of tax fiddling, and no one seems to be making much of an effort towards actually doing something at a grassroots level to end the war as soon as possible, except maybe a few letters from groups to assorted political figures.
I see that in order for a war to be over with, certain monetary issues need to be resolved. I hope we in Australia can do something tangible in this respect. Of course we have our own problems (drought and cities fighting with rural farming communities over water rights, the high costs of living due to inflation heading towards recession, the overall rental housing crisis etc) but that doesn't mean we should leave our troops out in the cold when it comes to monetary and actionable support.

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

glenn horlacher — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:12:40 -0000

The American people have not been asked (nor have they volunteered) to sacrifice ANYTHING since WWII. Their motto is "Let's put it on the backs of the military schmoe's, then forget them when the fightin's over and screw them out of what we promised them when they joined."
I have come to hate all civilians. All of my friends are ex-military, I have no use for civilians whatsoever. As far as I'm concerned, you can all go to blazes.

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

Ken McKinley — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 01:45:45 -0000

In a sense I agree with this post. I do believe that the "average" American has no concept of sacrifice. However I disagree with one important point; namely this notion that sacrifice at home will bring the war to an end sooner. Here's a novel idea. Why not defeat our enemies so that the war will end. Rather than put the pinch on American's on the home front, (wich some say is exactly what our enemies want) why don't we pull out all the stops and defeat our enemies soundly and completely and thus end the war? The sooner we win, the sooner its over. By putting the "pinch" on American's back home, what results is a nation that is not necessarily tired of the war effort, but tired of making sacrifices, and thus the carpet is pulled out from under the soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines that are doing the fighting.
As stated, I agree with some things in this post, but some of it just rubs me the wrong way.

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

Seth Gottlieb — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 10:18:47 -0000

This is an amazing post. I have been thinking along these lines for a long time now but have not been able to express myself so articulately. The only things Americans have been asked to sacrifice are what we pride ourselves for: personal privacy and liberty (with the Patriot Act), our international leadership and stature (by our poor diplomacy), our honor and morality (by using torture), our promising future (with this debt).... The list goes on. That we sacrifice these things for material comforts, shows our weakness and vulnerability.

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

Gonzo — Wed, 21 May 2008 12:40:07 -0000

Sorry for coming to the party late but I took this post at its face value: we're not being asked to sacrifice for this war. It is very sad that we hear more about Britney's cootchie or whatever the political gossip du jour is than we do about the sacrifices our boys and girls are making for us.

I saw a photo not long ago of a piece of graffiti on some wall over in Iraq. The essence was "America is not at war. Marines are at war. America is at a shopping mall".

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

JackUH — Sun, 18 May 2008 14:35:55 -0000

"Why not offer war bonds so that citizens can do something tangible to support the war effort and the government can borrow from actual Americans and American companies instead of selling their soul to a foreign power?"

Rash anti-foreign sentiment is knee-jerk and irrational in the 21st century. It doesn't matter if China or our own citizens hold the debt. It matters that the government should make an effort to pay it back.

Also, I would say to win this current War, we're going to need Americans NOT to look inwards and be hostile to foreigners. If anything, American strength is from engaging the world. We can start by expanding Arabic language programs throughout the United States, so that we can actually start communicating with the Mid East. The face of the US should not only be a soldier, or worse a UAV . It should be educators, diplomats, and engineers as well.

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

apollonian — Sat, 17 May 2008 02:34:47 -0000

I would like to suggest that "wartime sacrifice" can include working to prevent and/or end a war that one disagrees with. An anti-war bumper sticker is a pittance. Those in opposition to a particular war should dedicate a significant portion of their means to activism.

Expressing one's opinion and working for an anti-war cause, targeting political opponents and not soldiers, honors the patriots who've sacrificed to secure free expression.

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

Mark — Mon, 05 May 2008 04:07:55 -0000

@ Jason Taylor

Doesn't it usually take sacrificing now to reap benefits later?

Also, it's worth noting that all civilians do make sacrifices for police. We pay taxes, police gets tax money. That's a type of regulated sacrifice for something that is always present: crime. Here we have a regular sacrifice, moderated, to try to keep crime low or, ideally, non-existent.

Finally, being aware of terrorism and potentially supporting the country's actions against it through sacrifice is not what grants terrorism success. The country itself supports terrorism with terrible media coverage based on _fear_. Fear is the successful means of terroristic tactics. Not awareness. Our country, if we really wanted to beat terrorism, should motivate the virtue of Resolve: resolve to be aware of terrorism's potential threat, resolve to make the necessary sacrifices to thwart it's means and ends (if we deem it a real threat), and most especially the resolve to not become scared nor illogical and especially not ignorant or disconnected in our ways of life.

Besides, are you telling me that the threat of terrorism -- which has been painted as such a large threat to our national security -- does not deserve our country's utmost attention and effort of eradication, if it is indeed real? If everything we've been lead to believe, if we agree that terrorism threatens our basic human freedoms, our way of life, how can we not ask everyone to make some partial sacrifice in superficial luxuries to secure this freedom for our children? I don't believe the case is so severe, I'm against this war, I do not believe the threat is nearly so great. But I believe that if this war were right, if it were against a real threat, we'd definitely all want to sacrifice for it to be taken care of, fiercely and resolutely.

With respect to the political argument: I just wish proof were present clearly that would allow each citizen to decide for themselves whether this threat is real or not. It all feels so mysterious and we're supposed to believe the decisions and promises of people that have a history of tweaking facts and outright lying at times. If we had honesty and disclosure regarding the situation of the world, and if we had competent, well educated citizens, we could trust that the citizenry could properly decide for themselves the severity of what is going on, and that the due amount of dedication and sacrifice would be given to this effort, whatever that quantity may be.

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

Mark — Mon, 05 May 2008 03:37:36 -0000

IN AIDE OF BRETT - this may help explain, tho correct me if I misunderstood.

From what I understand, Brett says people need to experience sacrifice during a time of war because that way the war is checked for value. In a sense, only a worthy war would have people be willing to sacrifice for it. WWII people sacrificed for it because it was necessary for securing the country's freedom. There was a very aggressive force expanding, and definitely, with time, threatening. However, now, the war is so distant from us, it's so abstract to most people, that it goes underway unchecked. Noone who opposes the war can do anything to show their opposition. Saying you oppose it doesn't accomplish anything because the government doesn't listen. Basically, by making sacrifices in only obscure ways, such as national debt, the government has taken away the citizen's abilities to show their approval or disapproval of the way. I have made huge sacrifices for this war without ever having supported it, because I've had no choice.

You see, because the war effort has been distanced from us, all of these people on this blog against the war should see that this separation is the dirty scheme with which this administration manages to carry out this war without opposition! BRETT IS INDEED AGAINST THE WAR. I just don't think it was clear to people who like to fight right away instead of listen, think, analyze, and use their imagination to extrapolate a very strong point. Here, I have tried to paint the picture clearly for you. I hope you understand now.

In short: Lack of personal sacrifice is lack of ability to vote on approval or disapproval of war. This allows the government to do what it wants without citizenry's involvement. You should demand for the right to choose whether to make personal sacrifices or not because only then can the massive portion of America that is against the war motivate its end.

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

Jason Taylor — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 02:46:27 -0000

Oddly enough I disagree. One of the main points of war is to reduce sacrifice by "reducing" those that require it of us. Comparing it to World War II is false. It is more like the Barbary Pirates. Wars like that will always plague us-it is the price of being a Great Power. Giving them the psychological effort appropriate for a world wide conventional war is folly. It is like demanding that all civilians make "sacrifices" for the police. And the same argument applies. Their role is to reduce everyone's sacrifice.
And in any case we can at least be practical about it. Terrorists depend on getting attention paid to them. If the only ones paying them attention are their pursuers then they lose. That is why terrorists seldom succeeded before mass media came along.
If we "support our troops" one way to do so is to be assured enough of their competence not to be upset about the war. Because that will let them do their jobs. It is better to win complacently then to lose sacrificially.

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

GeographyGuy — Sat, 05 Apr 2008 00:56:54 -0000

Brett and Kate,

Thank you both for this well thought out and insightful article. The only point that i would contest is the call for a Nation Draft. Since the advent of the Patriot Act my faith in our executive branch to work for our best interest has been bankrupted. If the option of joining the Peace Core or other diplomatic agencies was offered as an alternative to Killing Poor Brown People Duty or Illegal Wiretapping Duty, then I would support your suggestion. Personally, I think that making sacrifices for Peace is as patriotic and manly a goal as one can work towards.

I subscribed to your blog tonight and look forward to your future contributions.

Thanks.

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

Justus — Thu, 03 Apr 2008 16:21:58 -0000

I don't disagree with you but I don't feel it's the primary problem either. This country's biggest problem is a lack of patriotism. Nobody actually wants the country to succeed. We argue and fight all the time and don't support each other in any way. Democrats and Republicans disagree just for the sake of disagreeing.

Nobody thinks it's an honor to die in battle. Nobody thinks their country is worth fighting for.

Yeah. Maybe our president is a stupid asshole. But he's OUR stupid asshole and we voted him in and he needs our freakin support until we get someone else in there.

Look at it this way. When you were in High School you probably thought it was boring and dumb. But if someone from a different school said a word you were ready to crack some skulls for your mascot.

It's all a matter of patriotism. I don't like our idiot president any more than the next guy (and I definitely didn't vote for him) but I'm stuck with him and as long as I am I've got his back. If that asshole McCain or Hillary wins I'll support their decisions too.

We have so much freedom that we've become spoiled with it. We can say and do whatever we want so why risk your life for others? It's selfish and disgusting but true.

Sparta was a military state who's people lived to serve their country. Why can't we be a democracy that does the same?

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

david — Thu, 03 Apr 2008 12:01:02 -0000

Making people sacrifice may turn them against the war but turning people against the war has no effect on policy. Just ask Dick Cheney.

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

Eric L. Pheterson — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 22:35:55 -0000

I agree so much with Roosevelt's stance on Wartime sacrifice. The scenario is that a terrible thing was happening in the world that we felt we could squelch, we wanted to help save the lives of the innocent people that were being murdered.

To do so, Roosevelt first wanted stability in America. He was dead on with that desire.

The fact of the matter during this war is before we entered it, innocent lives were not at stake. As it turns out, the result of us entering the war was hundreds of thousands of innocent people shot dead by the hands of my own country. Innocent people that posed no threat to the security of our nation, or the peacefulness of the world.

That aside, our president does not agree with your post. Bush wants, more than anything, for us all to spend every cent we own. He wants as much money moving around in the economy as possible because he believes that is a sign of a strong economy.

Also Bush does not appear to be interested in production in America. Bush happily allows the majority of the products in our country to be made overseas, using oil to ship them here, and buying these products on credit.

Bush is not interested in Wartime Sacrifice.

If this were Roosevelt's country, and Roosevelt's war, I'd gladly make sacrifices. For George Bush, and this sham of a war, I'll do everything in my power to oppose.

Re: What Happened to Wartime Sacrifice?

Rob O. — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 22:23:52 -0000

At a minimum, one of the personal sacrifices people should willingly make is to at the very least be better, smarter consumers. For God's sake, why are people still buying huge gas-guzzling SUVs and the like when there's such a direct coorelation between petroleum dependancy and the war?

This is just pure irresponsibility in action. Here in Texas, you see an awful lot of rednecks driving $40k quad-cab Ford Lariats, Chevy Tahoes, and other monstrously oversized vehicles for doing nothing more than commuting to work - alone. But the prevailing attitude here - and I suspect most other areas of this country - is something like, "By God, if you ain't got yerself a big dick truck, well heck, ya just ain't much of a man, now are ya?" So, what's most important to most people seems to be keeping up an appearance rather than purchasing a vehicle that's appropriate to the task.

Of course, this is also hugely irresponsible on the part of the automakers and the marketing wizards hired by them. They've convinced the American public that they need big honkin' SUVs to be safe or look tough. For more than 50 years, American car buyers have been suckered & steered into a fascination with useless and mostly inapplicable performance (a.k.a. horsepower) and it's time for the automotive industry to end the deception.