Art of Manliness - Latest Comments in Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

Brenton — Wed, 23 Jun 2010 11:50:11 -0000

Wow, this article sure has generated quite a bit of controversy. I clicked on the link to it because as soon as I read the title I knew the comments would be interesting and heated. I certainly wasn't dissapointed ;)

I'd like to say I agree with the generalized (oops, that's a bad word around these parts) tone of the commentary so far; that being that while the article made a very valid point, it used the 'indie' culture as a poor scapegoat illustration. I would consider myself 'indie' only as far as not letting myself be influenced by popular culture and commercialism and trying to find real meaning in my life. To be perfectly honest, in my personal experience, maybe 50% of the 'indie' people I know and socialize with fit this bill. Half of them are genuinely concerned with making their lives more meaningful and less controlled by society, and the other half are along for the ride, very much in the way the author describes it.

It is a pity that the author chose this stereotype as a medium for his frustration against buying an identity, but I totally agree with the point personally. If you base any part, absolutely any part of your self-identity or self-image on how others perceive you or how others perceive the products you subscribe to, you are quite the tool. Sincerely, if you need some kind of product to identify yourself with a group of people, especially one that's designed for that very purpose, you're a tool.

That being said, one thing I've learned from my 'true indie' friends is how to be accepting and think thoughtfully about other cultures and perspectives, and it's done me some good. As a passionate musician, I'd say the 50/50 rule applies again to the 'indie' music I've heard; half of it is really good and satisfying, half of it is poorly thought-out junk.

Coda: If you're going to use blatantly incorrect grammar or spelling in your posts, I'll generally disregard your opinions straight-away. For real, think about what you write.

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

Caw Caw — Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:39:46 -0000

@ Caw
No, the crows are calling my name!

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

Andrew — Thu, 10 Dec 2009 02:33:57 -0000

i think quite a few people aren't understanding some things. (im 22 for reference) there are posers (in the 14-28 age group mostly.) these, for the most part, are what the writer and sympathizers are talking about. they hop about from fashion to fashion - whatever is "in" at the time. i wasn't knowledgable about young adult culture until the emo movement was in full swing. from emo, it went to indie. then from indie to hipster. there's been a small native american movement lately, but it's still pretty much considered hipster.

the previously mentioned posers have basically been all of these things. when one becomes popular, they move on to the next. there are sincere people who were part of these "groups" before posers and consumerism made it popular, and there are sincere people that stick with it after it has moved on. while a lot of what i'm about to say sounds like complete generalizations, anyone who is a genuine part of these groups will most likely be able to agree.

with poser emo kids, like these other groups, a set fashion was readily and wordlessly agreed on. type in emo hair on google images. imagine that - they all look basically the same. type in emo makeup. same thing. whiny little girls that hated their lives. depressed little boys that tried to be as skinny as possible - writing sad poetry - sometimes cutting themselves"to make themselves feel ok because "they're proving i can still feel something in my callused life"

poser indie kids. neutral milk hotel. vintage clothes. urban outfitters phonographs. grungy. self aware. 70s comeback.

poser hipsters. bright clothing. pushing their fixed gear bikes with bright deep v's. 80s comeback. listening to bubblegum electric pop. as i stated earlier, native american fashion has had a bit of a resurgence. keffiyehs around necks.

it's easiest to tell the posers when talking about their fashion dominates their conversations. genuine indie kids couldn't care less about staying in trend, and just do what they've always done. genuine bike messengers aren't worried about so many posers riding around with their ourys.

the blogger makes some great points that i agree with about consumerism, but obviously has very little idea about the particular group they chose to pick on. research could have been entertaining and informative. but this just seems like yet another case of being out of touch with a younger generation. we fear what we don't understand. the general adult public and big markets pick up on the increasing amount of posers copping a style, market/talk about it, and it attracts more posers. exponential growth til the next big thing. for every gilded thing to complain about, there's most likely a more genuine beginning.

@indieguy - i'd say it's the other way around. indie used to define music, but nowadays it seems to me to be more of a culture thing.

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

JR — Mon, 30 Nov 2009 07:35:25 -0000

Wow! You two hit the nail on the head with this post..! I live in a town where the Indie movement is alive and well, and I'm wondering if we live in the same city because your description is just what I've experienced.
For the record, my perspective is that of an outsider. I'm kind of a ham-n-egger, or an Iron Eagle American if you will. I'd rather eat at Sizzler than susi, shop at Walmart rather than Whole Foods, and the Olive Garden makes better italian food than 99%of the "Mom and Pop" italian places.
We are all consumers and we all conform, the irony is that the Indie crowd defines itself by its nonconformity, but any objective person, who's not part of that crowd, will observe a rigid set of unwritten rules regarding appearance, acquaintances, and general behavior.
I think you touched a nerve with so many people because you pointed out a very amusing truth rooted in hypocrisy and insecurity. Nothing against all you "indies" and "hipsters" and props to you if your skinny jeans, keffiyehs, and Jack's Mannequin bootlegs get you laid. It's just kind of funny that your whole crowd, which is supposed to be all different, looks and acts the same.
We're all hypocrites and we all have insecurities. I laugh at black jokes, but I love Tyler Perry movies and blacks in general. I laugh at gay guys, but I'm eternally grateful when they're working at the department store and have the patience to help me buy suits. I think Taylor Swift has some good songs, but I turn the volume down when I pull up next to a carload of girlies.
Anyways, I think your post was right on the money, and maybe some folks need to shrug it off and learn to laugh at themselves.

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

cody fulling — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 07:53:43 -0000

I know exactly what you mean... only we call them hipsters here. Goths have the same problem they try so hard to be different that they end up being everything they hate,,, only they don;t have a clue that they are doing it. Only difference is goths listen to shitty music and there is alot of cool indie music.

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

tommyms1972 — Thu, 16 Apr 2009 01:35:09 -0000

The indie identity is based on the idea of being independent from the mainstream. To this end, indie people buy clothes, CD’s, furniture, books, food, and concert and movie tickets that are not popular with the masses. Instead of going to Chili’s, they fidelity 401k frequent their local Thai restaurant; instead of going to Wal-Mart, they go to Whole Foods; instead of picking up the new Coldplay CD

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

Indie Guy — Fri, 27 Feb 2009 04:34:45 -0000

These days, Indie describes the music more than the culture.

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

Stephen — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 01:48:24 -0000

p.s.
I'd go so far as to say I'm indie, and a man.

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

dave — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 18:52:27 -0000

"Getting married (when the time is right of course) is an essential and vital part of manhood."

ha! lets just alienate everyone not interested in marriage, people who may never meet a suitable partner, homosexuals...

or Not....u could just help everyone "man up" without the narrow dogma

and...u could have said more about the concept that shopping independently, organically, locally, etc can help make the world better by supporting businesses that act responsibly, sustainably, chemical-free, fair trade, and on and on, rather than perpetuating corporate globalization/homogenization

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

Stephen — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 02:32:24 -0000

You know, I used to really like this blog till it started ratting on anything they deemed not manly.
I don't see how you can just diss on something like this, and then back it up from sources like wikipedia. If you think that being indie is about being different and whatnot from everyone else then you're wrong. You can't just define something like that and then toot your own horn, it's hypocritical.
I thought this website was about being your own man, but apparently not if you're indie. You lost a reader with this article. I really think that this is a rude blog, and if you really care about your readers then I would expect more respect to each individual.

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

laddiebuck — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 02:06:26 -0000

Clothes will never distinguish you. 5 words of conversation instantly can, though. If in person, the way you carry yourself and your face will be enough. Over the phone, the tone, volume, intonation, tempo, style and emotion of your voice will be enough. By almost all people, this is not consciously focussed on, and in totality reveal much about your personality -- all before the content of what you say (which is really what distinguishes you or doesn't) even enters the picture. Someone adept at making snap judgements (this comes with experience, hastened by conscious training) will make very accurate ones in an incredibly brief time.

But when you've actually done something, it's enough to let your actions speak for themselves or other people speak for you.

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

Brian — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 22:26:02 -0000

It looks as though some comments made about this indie article are looking too far into the subject. The article seems to be about keeping personal independence no matter what others may have followed into. The indie culture would just be the first target unfortunately because of the idea that indie represents free and independent thought.

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

alex — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 20:18:27 -0000

when i was in highschool i wore all black, and certain kinds of pants from hot topic but always black, i still wear black at all times, other then at work, because im comfortable in it, but im straying from my point in highschool i was consistantly labeled as goth, and i am by no means goth i was a victim of consumer stereotyping, i was followed in the mall by the security guards because i was that kid in all black with few or no people around, i live in the bible belt so there is an abundance of ignorance towards people who arent the same as you. to finally make my point i have never labeled myself in any one particular group nor do i want to be labeled simply because i then have to conform to that group

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

JConda — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 14:15:48 -0000

The term 'indie' is a marketing term. People who consider themselves 'indie' are victims of said marketing. No one with a truly independent spirit considers themselves or anything they do in life 'indie'.

So, in my opinion, this post attacks, not those who stay true to themselves and follow their own hearts and individual intellects in the matters of style, art and occupation. Rather it targets those who want to wallow in the facade of being 'indie' without truly dedicating themselves to what that really means, and allowing researchers in corporate boardrooms to dictate what's cool and what's not.

As far as consumption goes, the United States is based on commerce. The dollar has power. So, instead of the supermarket I may spend my dollars at the local farmers market or community owned organic grocery (please note: Whole Foods is an excellent example of a large company with an effective marketing scheme as described above...as is Mac, Volkswagen, Chipotle..etc.)

Where I choose to spend my dollars without being affected by someones persuasive marketing has a lot to do with my independence.

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

Nan — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 22:34:21 -0000

"I generally steer clear of people who make rash generalizations of people, be it the color of their skin or the label on their cardigan."

If that isn't a contradiction I don't know what is!! LOL

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

Chris — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 16:48:41 -0000

Sure, if "indie" is merely what you characterize it as, it is a "bunch of bunk." But I'm not sure that that's all that there is too it enough of the time to make such a generalization. In fact, it seems likely that an observer only distinguishes this group by their consumption, and in a bout of self-importance decides that this is where the line is actually drawn. (This may be true of many other groups, as well.)

What is also a bunch of bunk is needlessly looking for a group of people to typecast and denigrate. But hey, I'm sure the controversy will get you some nice blog traffic for a little while.

When I subscribed to your RSS feed some months, I found the article premises, at least, to be intriguing, and was often impressed by the quality of the article itself, as well. Since then, though, it has largely been uninteresting but inoffensive, and so I check the feed less often. With this article, however, you're simply uninteresting -- and I'm not even an indie kid. Bravo.

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

Max Novi — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 11:40:24 -0000

Can't say I agree with this bit of advice: "don't be ironic and sarcastic" (it also contrasts with your recent advocacy of oratory).

If you meant "don't be a smart-ass", then I agree. It's all a matter of dosage, as it often happens.

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

Stephanie Drury — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 11:07:38 -0000

This was interesting, thanks.

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

Skeffington — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:56:51 -0000

Patty:

"I find the flaw to be singling out a specific group. You shouldn’t isolate a few when the in fact the masses are at fault as well"

Very true.

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

Benn — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:49:21 -0000

Great article - disastrous illustration.

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

caw — Sun, 24 Aug 2008 23:28:22 -0000

the crows seem to be calling my name

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

Patty — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 10:57:52 -0000

@ JW

I'm a man btw...Part of what makes you a man is your ability to form relationships, which does include the female gender. I find the female perspective on this sight refreshing, if not for them we'd been drowning in testosterone fueled comments. As a male, I'm always curious about the female point-of-view.

I don't see anything wrong with somebody sticking up for themselves when they feel like they are being wrongfully attacked and/or singled out. I mean if none of these indie kids came on here to defend themselves you'd be accusing them of admiting to their faults because they didn't say anything against your accusations. Its a lose-lose situation. I don't consider myself indie in any way yet I commend these people for defending themselves. Stereotypes are just such because somebody felt the need for labeling a certain group. Usually those doing the labeling are not members of those stereotype, and those who are usually disagree with the label they've been given. For example, we assume that all video game players or sci fi watchers are nerds when this is simply not the case. Just because I happen to enjoy some Wii or watch a sci fi movie does not make me a nerd. Superficial is almost an obsolete word to me these days because it applies to everybody. People purchase acceptance everyday, whether they admit it or not. If you are going to single out a specific group for being a certain way you should pick a topic that doesn't apply to the entire US population, because as Lani said, it makes it look more like an attack rather than an intelligent observation.

I find the overall concept of this article to be well-thought out, but I find the flaw to be singling out a specific group. You shouldn't isolate a few when the in fact the masses are at fault as well.

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

Kate — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:38:52 -0000

@Lani-

Fair enough. I understand your point. The idea of the post was to use the specific topic of being indie as an example of the bigger point about not basing your identity on what you can buy. We chose the indie culture to make this point since it is so prominent currently. Nevertheless, I can see how singling out only one group for criticism could be seen as offensive. As a whole, I have taken your comments to heart and will try to make my comments less snarky in the future.

@JW-
Brett and I welcome female readers to the site. Manliness does not exist in a vacuum and women have a valuable viewpoint on what makes men, men.

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

Lani — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:32:15 -0000

Kate, ok I'll concede the point that it was hypicritical of me to throw insults in return, I'll chalk it up to this article bringing out the worst in me.

I won't fight you on the issue any longer, I will simply say that the next time you wish to write an article criticising poplular culture, perhaps you shouldn't single out a particular group, I just feel this article would have been more accepted and intelligently written had it been more generalized. Perhaps it would have been seen more as a observation and not an attack on a particular group How would you feel if somebody singled out married blog writters and accused them of being a certain way when in fact EVERY blog writer was in fact "that way" Every stereotype in some sense has purchased an item to better establish themselves as part of a group, to single one particular group out seems like you're just trying to pick a fight.

Re: Why Being "Indie" is a Bunch of Bunk | The Art of Manliness

JW — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:24:03 -0000

I have to say that I'm a little tired of female commenters who for some reason are regular readers of a blog called the Art of MANLINESS and who keep getting on this blog and shrilly railing against the posts. I mean, Patty, are you really surprised with this vintage theme that the authors of the blog might be into Victorian era stuff? Note to you ladies: this blog is not for you! Bug off!

On the topic of this post, it seems to me that the very defensive responses from the indie kids actually proves the point of the post. I found this article through a link on my friend's Christian-themed blog. He really liked the article, and as a Christian man, I also really liked it. And it seems to me that this is because I have a core identity, so I'm not threatened by it. I like indie stuff, and people would probably think I was a "hipster," but I know that's just my outward appearance, and my real identity springs from real convictions. But for a lot of indie kids, being indie is all they have and when you attack them they get really defensive, because you're exposing just how superficial their identity and life is.